John- I have to disagree John, in that if we lose sight of WHY we went to war, how can we ever know if success has been achieved?

Of course, there are a lot of IF’S to contend with, and yes, things could actually turn out for the better far down the line. My main point was whether democratizing other coutnries through war is the best or only course to take.

And until that day comes, or until we leave the situation to the Iraqi’s , any conclusion is just speculative at best.

I don’t think that al-Qaeda would have chosen Iraq as their stomping ground had we not created such a vacuum of power by removing Saddam. His removal will be seen as a good thing, I am sure, but our methods will be seen as clumsy and insincere at best.

As for your scenario, I don’t promote the idea of total abandonment as you suggest. A measured withdrawal along with active support is essential. But just as essential is the need for Iraqi’s to own their own future, not just to have it thrust upon them.

They must be the ones to denounce the terrorists in their midst and actively take part in driving out their ideology of hate. At most, we should be their “wingman.”

Thanks for continuing the discussion.

Windspike- There are likely many lessons from history we could glean, if only our leaders were so inclined.

Were Kerry to have won in ’04, we would likely have a different face on this war, but I no sooner think he would have just “cut and run” than I think we would have an al-Qaeda holocaust on our hands. We will never know how things would have gone though. We only know how they are going. And that is the reality we must work with.

Thanks again, as always.

Thank you for your thoughtful replies. The person who was Secretary of State after MacNamarra and delt directly with the Vietnam situation may have some lessons we can glean from while trying to clean up Iraq (i’m posting about it today). He suggests that indeed there was a modicum of victory that was squandered and lost becuase the congress cut funding post war. If we do have some kind of pull you, as you suggest, it does not mean we loose – but we do have an obligation to not leave the Iraqi’s high and dry – and at the mercy of the terrorists we drew in with our agressive military magnet.

I would have to contest John whole line of argument. Suggesting that there would have been some kind of Talliban/Al Queda driven Holocost in Iraq if Kerry were in charge is completely faulty logic.

Indeed if I use a similar strategy for rhetorical argument I would suggest that if Bush hadn’t stolen the election there never would have been a 9/11. That is, if Kerry won (well, he may actually well have, but we will never know becuase of how 2K played out), the terror cells never would have recieved their green go light to perpetrate their tragedy. That is, becuase W was installed, that was the trigger for these bastards to do the nasty job they did.

So, to suggest some alternate universe is really way off base and only slights your argument.

Let me give you a scenario: we begin a measured withdrawal along the lines you have mentioned.

Al Qaeda moves back into Fallujah and western Iraq, kills the local government officials and the police and establishes Iraq Sharia – women in veils, terrorist training camps…the whole nine yards.

A new Taliban Afghanistan.

What do you do then?

My point was only that the initial reasons for war often get lost as the war progresses, and that is not necessarily a bad thing.

World War II ended the holocaust, but FDR never said that was a reason for the war.

In the end, if the US has unleashed democratic forces in a thoroughly oppressed and thus perpetually threatening part of the world

AND

Those forces lead to democratically elected governments like the one in Iraq (which yes, is far from perfect)….

AND

Those governments begin to tackle the probelms that have lead the Arab world into such a cycle of pathetric failure (that it currently blames on the Jews or us).

Yes, then the war will have been a small price to pay.

Will it happen?

I’m not sure, but it is promising.

And if we had a President Kerry, we would never find out. We would have abandoned millions of Iraqis to Al Qaeda holocaust that only we can prevent.

As much as I detest George Bush, that is why I voted for him.

mike- I doubt that many American’s would continue to support this administration (if they could fall any lower according to polls) if the aims of the PNAC were publically acknowledged as the reason for the war. But we deserve the truth, however ugly it may really be.

thanks for the comment.

One “word”: PNAC

Lt K- (contiunued)The president didn’t create the war of terror, it predates him by decades, but he choose to make Iraq the central playground. The mission in Iraq was the wrong mission in the war on terror, at least how its been managed. But unless we can provide Iraq with a secure, stabile government, that offers equality to all its citizens, OIF is nothing but another government misnomer. Freedom can’t be forced on anyone, it has to be earned. Someone does have to do it…and it should be those with the most to gain leading the charge.

If the enemy were on our doorstep, I’d pick up a weapon and meet them head on. I am not being sarcastic either. But perhaps the people you should bee asking for help is the politicians who sent you and your mates over there. The conspicuous absence of their children and kin and their aggressive recruitment of lower middle class students belies their disdain for the military too. Hell, most of these people never even learned to salute properly.

I respect you for your service and wish you a safe a speedy return. It is with that goal in mind that I question the policies and direction (or lack of it) by our politicians.

Thanks for the in depth point of view. Good luck.

windspike- yes, coming clean is critical to ever ending the conflict with a shred of integrity.

I don’t advocate a pull-out en masse, only a gradual by timely withdrawal. And if an Iraqi government, through the will of their people want us to maintain a military presence, then we should work out the details down the road. But why should we stay where we are unwelcome, if we are unwelcome? We fought hard, yes. But leaving is not the same as defeat, not if we can help the Iraqi’s create their own future and dream where we can exist in alliance, or at least respectful indifference.

Global terrorisn has no heart, it has a hundred. The president didn’t choose to start the war with radical islam. They choose it long before he was a political figure. He choose to turn Iraq into the showcase theater. There are other ways than all out war to fight a dispersing enemy. And many ways to finish the mission, once we get back to the mission of defeating radical islamic hatred.
OIF is a misnomer though if what we leave behind is a forced mimic of America that neither fits nor works.

I would fight the enemy here at home in a heartbeat. I’m not being sarcastic either. But perhaps the people you should be asking to send their children over, or to come over themselves, are the politicians who voted us into Iraq in the first place.

Thanks for the in depth point of view, and I wish you all the best, sincerely. I value your service greatly, and hope for a speedy return to your family, safe and out of harms way.

I think the Iraqi’s should be given the tools, the knowledge, and the financial assistance to put the place back the way they want it, not as we would have it be.

Always a pleasure friend…

John- No John, that isn’t at all what I was saying, and I think you know it. Our civil war has no real correlation to this war.

Do you think the Iraqi’s enjoy having an American corporation deciding what will be built and where and how, and then taking the lion’s share of the money as profit? Who says it should be an American company leading the rebuilding effort anyhow. Our government is simply transferring our dollars to their bank accounts, with little accountability.

I have read most of the Iraqi Constitution, and while it does give plenty of lip service to equality, all of that comes AFTER the intro that says law must be in agreement with the Quran. I’ll reserve final judgement for now, but I’m curious to see the two comingle. Of course, I hope for a democratic form of power that offers its citizens real equality. Let’s hope they succeed.

I have to ask you to give a definition of “winning.” Is it to kill all the insurgents? To install a puppet government like we’ve done so often before? To help Iraq transition to a secular government without stealing all their resources? Our administration is just as nebulous when defining “winning.” Perhaps that is why there is no plan for an end…

My solution would require Iraqi’s to choose their real future. Give them the strength to restore order, but then it is up to them. If they can’t hold it together after we’ve given them all the help we can, if the fall into civil war, is it our place to force a peace? Would that have worked in our Civil War? Or would we have fought against the outside force first, and then returned to our own discord, to settle things our way?

I know that our war on terror is not singularly ensconced in Iraq, but this administration would have us believe that it is the main point of battle. It wasn’t that way until we went there. Our war exists in many more places than Iraq, including along our own borders in this country. Unfortunately, all of our resources are poured into the Iraq debacle, with no clear end in sight. Such a single-minded approach to a truly subversive and shifting enemy is dangerously wrong to me.

Thanks for another point of view though.

Jolly- Treu enough that if you DO go to fight a war, you had better be prepared to go all out and conclude it as thoroughly and quickly as possible. War is bad, but when unavoidable, it should be commenced as quickly and effectively as possible. If you are going to use the iron fist, use it fast and hard. Then you can actually achieve the aims you seek. All this half-assed, drawn out attempt to make war more PC only prolongs the conflict, the anguish, and corruption while exposing the ineptitude of the civilian policies that got us there.

Good to hear from you again.

Monkey45- I can agree with that statement. Thanks.

Lt. K- Obviously, you have more information than I could have, simply by virtue of being where it all goes down. And yes, some of the info I get is from the MSM, which include Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, and the Washington Post, as well as CNN, USA Today, and the AP.
I hear both the cheerleading and the denouncing and understand that the truth may be in the middle or something else entirely. I’ve also heard from military folks who take a different view than you do, both active and retired, so please don’t assume that all military people hold your views. They don’t.

I hear about the rebuilding and see the pictures of smiling Iraqi children with US troops. I know that in the midst of destruction and war that good occurs too. This post is not a hit piece on the military as much as it is on the civilian leadership that got us there.

And while the people may seem thankful, it is an awkward kind of thanks that doesn’t take responsibility for ending the extremism of its own making? Where is the denouncing of the insurgency? Where is the Iraqi rage at the terror brought against them by their own brethren?

Listen, I respect your decision to serve in the military, (I was USAF in GWI- not there, but in uniform) and can empathize with your discomfort at the political machinations that put you there, and understand your duty to uphold your end of the stick. As I said, this is not a rant on the rank and file in uniform.

I’m sure that the military has a plan to get out of there…I’m much less sure about the political leadership though. And when it comes to Bush and Cheney, I don’t think they have any qualms about staying there in perpetuity if they could. After all, they suffer nothing personally, and likely gain quite a bit in their “blind trusts” and future pay-offs.

The reasons are never irrelevant, not if we want to get out with some ounce of integrity. And without those real reasons, how can you ever define “winning?”
And again…9-11 does not equal Iraq. It never did. Two different things, no matter how much lipstick you put on it.

And my plan completely calls for assisting the Iraqi’s in restoring stability as part of the withdrawal.

I’ve used the “better there than here” argument too, but as I think about it, if the strife really was happening here, do you think we’d still be f$#@ing around or would we have finished the fight by now? Hell, our two-front global war in the 1940’s didn’t take this much time once we got ramped up. People die in war, and it sucks. But why should the people be the Iraqi citizens, who had little or no say in the politics of their country, while Americans live in relative security. We had a say in our government, and as such, quietly acceded to all the crap they’ve pulled around the world over the years. We are probably more culpable than Abu in the dessert ever was.

To predict what history may say is a bit presumptuous I think. I too mourn the deaths of soldiers. I live near Camp Pendleton in California, close enough to feel the bombs during their practive sessions. Each bomb that shakes my windows makes me hope that the men and women training are honing their skills enough to guarantee them a return trip home. This conflict is far from over. The larger War against Terrorism will claim many more lives than just in Iraq I fear.

Please don’t confuse the lack of support for the president as a lack of support for
the soldiers. If anything, it is because your lives are valued that we question and seek an end to this conflict. I know you are doing the best you can. It is our leadership that is failing.

Reserve FOrces do have much to offer, and I was not trying to denigrate their sacrifice and service. But I went through the basic training too, and I know that the reserve and guard enlistees left a whole lot sooner than I did. They also aren’t in constant training like active duty. They may be more prone to mistakes in a prolonged operation for those reasons alone. I meant no insult here either, only that these folks were meant to protect the homeland, not be sent to a prolonged conflict overseas.

Best Regards,
Lieutenant K
http://www.wordsmithatwar.blog-city.com