Comments on: Morality and the Law https://commonsenseworld.com/morality-and-the-law/ Thoughts on Politics and Life Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:22:21 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.4.32 By: Ken Grandlund https://commonsenseworld.com/morality-and-the-law/#comment-68 Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:36:00 +0000 http://annafiltest.wordpress.com/2005/02/07/morality-and-the-law/#comment-68 (response to M+)

Whether our rights are descended from him or bestowed upon ourselves through enlightened thought is a circuitious argument.

But if secular rule is asserting itself into religious faith, perhaps this is the backlash of thousands of years of the reverse being true. That does not make it any more palatable for either side, but at least could be an explanation. Non-religious, and in this country, non-Christians, have been particularly overmatched both in political machinations and in social policy for quite some time, and this is perhaps the result of having these ideas shut away too long. Therefore, the result of overzealous public policy grounded in any religious doctrine only becomes self-defeating. As it increases to supress that to which it objects, the oppressed points of view take shape in other less direct and arguably more corruptible manners.

Thanks for a lively discussion.

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By: M+ https://commonsenseworld.com/morality-and-the-law/#comment-67 Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:46:00 +0000 http://annafiltest.wordpress.com/2005/02/07/morality-and-the-law/#comment-67 Ken,
I understand what you’re saying, but I believe our particular form of government has been established in such a way as to promote the concept of God in the same way that corporations are “legal entities”. His existence in our laws are not to enforce a particular doctrine, which I am in agreement with you on, but to enforce the idea that our rights are decendant from Him (who/whatever He may be).
However, as our society moves further away from this idea, we find secular rule attempting to assert itself into my matters of faith. Especially, those matters which become public expressions.
If the government is supposed to protect my right to practice my faith it has to be willing to allow my faith to have some influence in the workings of government and public life. Likewise, if I’m supposed to trust government not to trample my faith under secular rule, it should also be willing to trust me not to inflict strict moral codes upon those who have a different life-view. And I think you and I agrre that there must be some compromise on this. Finding it seems to be the tough part.
I know that you probably don’t consider me a “right-wing nut”, that was another commentors quote. I just thought I’d play with it a little bit. I recognize that I’m a bit more moderate in my views because of my convictions regardng Freewill. But also do not allow my emotions to rule my faith. I’m a huge fan of C.S. Lewis, and He always took a logical approach to faith. So do I.
Keep writing, I’ll keep reading. It makes me think through what is on the table. We don’t have to agree as long as we can disagree with some civility.

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By: Ken Grandlund https://commonsenseworld.com/morality-and-the-law/#comment-66 Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:03:00 +0000 http://annafiltest.wordpress.com/2005/02/07/morality-and-the-law/#comment-66 (response to M+)

Please note that I do not equate personal religious veiwpoints as being synonomous with “right-wing nuts.” I firmly believe that everyone has the right to believe what and in whom the choose.

The concept of “God” really has nothing to do with legal concepts in the most empirical terms. “God” refers to an omniscient creator, while “legal codes” refer to man’s attempts to coexist peacefully with each other.

As such, God/religion and man’s laws can coexist without encroaching upon each other. How? The answer lies in ensuring that legal codes are non-denominational, non-preferential, and evenly applied regardless of spiritual dogma. So, while individuals, including elected politicians have every right to worship in their own ways and to share/teach their beliefs with their children, they must also teach that other viewpoints may not be the same, but deserve as much reflection and respect as those they hold themselves.

Civility depends upon the ability to agree to disagree without resorting to violence or defamation.

“God” may grant citizenship into humanity, but man’s laws are what apply to national citizenships and the cohesion of different cultures within geographical/political spheres.

Faith in secular politics is what allows individuals to remain true to their own values without stepping on those of others. We elect leaders to ensure that the public trust is protected from narrowly focused religious doctrines. We choose religion to provide peace of mind to ourselves and to provide answers to questions that we may never be able to answer in our physical lives.

Secular rule has at it’s core the task of ensuring that no law tramples religious beliefs nor promotes one over another.

Your religious values have merit…to you and others who share them. But they can’t be imposed on everyone else simply because you believe in their infinite truth.

Thanks for sharing your views. I hope you’ll come back again.

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By: M+ https://commonsenseworld.com/morality-and-the-law/#comment-65 Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:38:00 +0000 http://annafiltest.wordpress.com/2005/02/07/morality-and-the-law/#comment-65 Well… I happen to be one of those right wing religious nuts. But I also believe strongly in Freewill, so I find myself in agreement with most of what you’ve posted here.
My only question though: How do we prevent “God” as a legal concept, and the originator of our “God given rights”, from being removed form our public lives?
I’m not saying that we need to acknowledge a particular God, of a certain religious persuasion. But I think that we need to keep the notion of “God” in our government. If only for the sake of reminding our elected officials that they are not our lords and masters, but our servants. And that they do NOT grant us the rights of citizenship that come from “God”.
On a side note, however: I’m still not convinced that the so-called “separation of church and state” was meant to keep religion out of government affairs as much as keeping policy from trampling on tenets of faith.
Anyone is allowed to run for office, and therefore allowed to have some influence on the policies which are created. If the “separation…” were meant to keep faith out of politics then eventually faith could become defenseless to secular rule. Which is also an unacceptable option in this discussion.

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By: windspike https://commonsenseworld.com/morality-and-the-law/#comment-64 Wed, 09 Feb 2005 07:05:00 +0000 http://annafiltest.wordpress.com/2005/02/07/morality-and-the-law/#comment-64 Very thoughtful post. Cornel West has some great things to say about the powerful mixing of religous zeal with all things political. His book is pretty darn good – I recommend it to others – title Democracy Matters.

I sliced a quote that pertains to the discussion herein. It can be read at my blog under the header: On Christians, the capital C kind.
Found at: http://educationalwhisper.blogspot.com/2005/02/on-christians-capital-c-kind.html

Enjoyed your writing in the past as well, just never commented, I think.

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By: Whymrhymer https://commonsenseworld.com/morality-and-the-law/#comment-63 Wed, 09 Feb 2005 03:41:00 +0000 http://annafiltest.wordpress.com/2005/02/07/morality-and-the-law/#comment-63 Great intro! I’m in sync with you 100%.

In my December post titled: “Behind the Attack on Christianity: A Theory” at (http://whymrhymer101.blogspot.com/2004/12/behind-attack-on-christianity-theory.html) I said many of the same things.

I’ll be anxiously awaiting you follow-up posts.

I have you bookmarked on my “Kinja” account (http://kinja.com/).

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By: Mellie Helen https://commonsenseworld.com/morality-and-the-law/#comment-62 Tue, 08 Feb 2005 23:02:00 +0000 http://annafiltest.wordpress.com/2005/02/07/morality-and-the-law/#comment-62 “…I am in no way attempting to altar your own personally held religious views…” Hee hee! Freudian slip, there? I think you meant to say, “alter”.

Very well thought out post in preparation to your upcoming essays. As a Christian, I certainly have certain views as to how God would prefer we behave. However, I also noticed that, while He told Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, the Tree was, nonetheless, standing right there in the garden (it wasn’t removed so as to “protect” the inhabitants), and the choice to partake or refrain was up to them. God gave us free will. While I believe there is a righteous path we should follow, He does not force Himself or His ways upon us. To make all laws conform to any particular set of religous beliefs would be the secular equivalent of God forcing us to accept Him. In a nutshell? I think God just might be a Libertarian!

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By: Sally https://commonsenseworld.com/morality-and-the-law/#comment-61 Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:25:00 +0000 http://annafiltest.wordpress.com/2005/02/07/morality-and-the-law/#comment-61 I am in complete agreement with you about religion having no place in policy. I believe seperation of church and state means that…why people have made this an issue again does not surprise me, it scares me!

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By: Ken Grandlund https://commonsenseworld.com/morality-and-the-law/#comment-60 Tue, 08 Feb 2005 06:00:00 +0000 http://annafiltest.wordpress.com/2005/02/07/morality-and-the-law/#comment-60 (respons to Spyder and Sally)

Spyder,

Thanks for the link to Deism.com. I have added it to my blogroll for others to explore. It seems clear to me that the concepts of organised religions, with all of their rituals and myths, are the basis for much of the discord between humans of the earth. Unfortunately, their prominence and proliferation grew unchallenged by the masses who originally were too busy trying to survive their violent times and who were easily controlled by those who held the reins of power. Obviously, centuries of compounded religious indoctrination is difficult, if not impossible, to repeal. The best that can be hoped for is that poeple will agree to disagree in their religious beliefs without needing to continuously convert those who think differently from themselves. My goal is to reveal the folly of those who would also subject our societies to their own religious thoughts through legislation, something that can only continue to lead us down the path of ruin and constant subjugation.

Sally-

I too fully expect to begin to get pummelled by zealots from all sides. Rather than bow to their suppositions though, I will continue to demonstrate that religious thought, while fine for individual comfort and guidance, has no place in public policy or practice.

Thanks to you both for dropping by.

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By: Sally https://commonsenseworld.com/morality-and-the-law/#comment-59 Tue, 08 Feb 2005 04:09:00 +0000 http://annafiltest.wordpress.com/2005/02/07/morality-and-the-law/#comment-59 It’s surprising that there haven’t been lots of rightwing nutcases flaming you…probably did not read the whole post. 😉

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